Talk:Noble lie

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the main article seems to make the assumption that democracy is the default setting for all human societies, that only such things as "noble lies" can explain the rule of an elite, whereas Plato's noble lie establishes the rule of a particular elite, the elite according to nature, that of the philosopher-kings. It also does not consider that all societies have such foundational myths, even democracies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.237.28.26 (talk) 19:05, 5 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Although arguably not an organisation based on the noble lie, many of their members are believed to be from various church groups that no longer believe, but continue to espouse the beliefs as a form of what they believe to be positive social control and continue to hold positions in many religious organizations.

Is "believe" transitive or intransitive in this sentence? If it is transitive (that is, if "the beliefs" is its object") then a closing parenthetic comma is needed after "espouse" for clarity. Alternatively, dashes or parentheses could be used around "but continue to espouse". — 217.46.147.13 (talk) 11:36, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]