Talk:Robert Yelverton Tyrrell

Robert Yelverton Tyrrell has been listed as one of the Language and literature good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. Review: December 30, 2024. (Reviewed version).

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Robert Yelverton Tyrrell/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: UndercoverClassicist (talk · contribs) 19:25, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewer: Tim riley (talk · contribs) 10:33, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No problems with this article as a candidate for GA. A few minor quibbles you may wish to consider, but nothing to prevent promotion to GA:

• "Wilde was incarcerated for homosexuality in 1895" – here and also in the main text, Wilde was not imprisoned for homosexuality. He was imprisoned for what he did, rather than what he was (the latter not being illegal then or ever.)
  • This is true, and an important distinction: now made. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 14:19, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• "this attracted the ire of his teacher, who considered verse composition frivolous, and the jealousy of his schoolmates, requiring Tyrrell to make amends for his superior attainments by a correspondingly deft use of his fists'" – presumably only against his schoolmates rather than the teacher too, but it isn't unambiguous.
  • I've slightly reworked; it should now be. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 14:19, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• ('Whispers of the Hesperides') – why the single quotes?
  • Because it's a gloss/translation, per MOS:SINGLE. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 14:19, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've learned something. Thank you. Tim riley talk 15:32, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "Johns Hopkins University in the Baltimore" – unexpected definite article.
  • Fixed (a hangover from when this was "the United States"). UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 14:19, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• "Tyrrell handed his chair in 1898 to his former student J. B. Bury" – this reads a bit strangely, as though the disposition of the chair was in Tyrrell's gift, which I imagine it wasn't.
  • That's how I read Stanford, though on second read it's not the only possible interpretation: he has Tyrrell yielded the regius professorship to him in 1898—the College perhaps had already guessed that Bury might look elsewhere for classical preferment, which allows that Tyrrell may have been directed to do this by the college. I've made a minor rework here. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 14:19, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Happy to leave this in your capables. Tim riley talk 15:32, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "Tyrrell was agnostic, though Stanford describes him as a 'mild agnostic'" – bumpy repetition of "agnostic". Wouldn't "Stanford describes Tyrrell as a 'mild agnostic'", do, omitting the first four words of the present sentence?
  • I've solved the repetition in a slightly different way: I think the emphasis needs to be twofold -- first on "agnostic" rather than "Christian", which is rather a surprise for someone who was professionally responsible for making sure the students were sufficiently God-fearing, then on "mild", to set up the following bit that demonstrates he was happy enough to play the game of Christianity even if he didn't fully believe the theological stuff. There's a nice anecdote I left out: at one point his nemesis Mahaffy was banned from preaching at the college (I'm not sure why), and Tyrrell complained that he hadn't been able to sleep in chapel since. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 14:19, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lovely! The conductor Sir Thomas Beecham took a swipe at "the critics slumbering in the stalls" to which the leading critic Ernest Newman responded that he had tried for years to get off to sleep during Beecham's concerts but had always failed miserably. Tim riley talk 15:32, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "On hearing an obscene limerick, said to have been composed by Gogarty, Tyrrell replied with a quotation from Hamlet praising Gogarty for his 'service of the antique world'". – I haven't the faintest idea what this means, and in any case "service of the antique world" is not from Hamlet but from As You Like It.
  • Oh, good catch! I was always told to guess Macbeth or Hamlet when asked to place a mystery Shakespeare quotation, and it seems Lyons had the same advice. I've added a correction to the footnote, without too much worry about OR (I think correcting an unmistakeable error with an unimpeachable source is fine: we can always change it to "a quote from Shakespeare" if needed). As for the meaning, it wasn't totally clear in context (by some accounts, Tyrrell wasn't quite as well-read as he made out): the quotation was `Oh, good old man How well in thee appears /The constant service of the antique world", and I assume Tyrrell was gesturing towards his love of irreverent and rude Latin epigrammatists like Martial and Catullus, which he had shared with Gogarty. Suggestions as to how to clarify it would be very welcome. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 14:19, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think anyone is going to object if you stray minimally off-piste to gloss this as you suggest. "On hearing an obscene limerick said to have been composed by Gogarty, Tyrrell, who enjoyed the irreverence of Latin epigrammatists like Martial and Catullus, praised Gogarty with a quotation from Shakespeare for his 'service of the antique world'" or something on those lines? Hardly flagrant OR. Tim riley talk 15:32, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent suggestion: implemented. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 16:03, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "According to Wilde's friend and biographer Frank Harris ..." – if one were looking for the perfect exemplar of the unreliable source it would be Harris, and I wouldn't trust a word he says, but I shan't make a fuss about your quoting him here.
  • Thank you: you'll notice I was very careful to hedge it here, as just about everyone else is. Equally, given that Harris had not connection to TCD (that I know of...?), it seems plausible that at least the existence of his conversation with Wilde about Tyrrell and Mahaffy is based in reality: it's tricky to see how he would have known about them otherwise. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 14:19, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Quite. Tim riley talk 15:32, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Over to you. I shan't bother putting the review on formal hold (unless you wish it). Tim riley talk 10:33, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Tim -- I thought of you when I found out about the Oscar Wilde connection here. Replies inline. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 14:19, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A suggestion, above, for your consideration. Tim riley talk 15:32, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Considered and adopted. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 16:50, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose quality:

   B. MoS compliance:

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. References to sources:

   Well referenced

   B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:

   Well referenced

   C. No original research:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   B. Focused:

4. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

5. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

   Well illustrated

   B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

   Well illustrated

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

I found this an interesting and instructive article to review. It gives me much pleasure to affirm its GA-status. – Tim riley talk 17:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]